halifax_slasher ([info]halifax_slasher) wrote,
@ 2007-01-15 03:47:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:non-florilegium

First prolegomena to future texts: Also, the case against the now part one: What is society for?
I am not a very nice person and I have done very few nice things in my life. However, I have done two things that were, if not nice, then at least not completely bastardly, and I would like to trot them out for the admiration of the world, and also to make a point.

So I used to have the Microsoft IM handle of warmmilk; and someone messaged me begging for it. He said that he was already warmmilk in several other venues, and desperately wanted to be warmmilk here as well. I didn't really care, so I switched the password to something generic and gave it to him. When I told people why I had switched my IM name, they all informed me I was an idiot. This person, the new warmmilk, could now impersonate me and, in some unspecified way, make my life a living hell. Only a retard, I was assured, would hand over a handle like that.

On another, unrelated occasion, I was driving a friend's moving van, and, as I cannot drive well, drove it into a parked car. I left a note on the windshield. As I wrote the note, my friends gathered around and ridiculed me. I could just drive away! I told my girlfriend at the time about the incident later, and she agreed that I was an idiot for leaving a note, as now the person I hit could make up a whole lot of damages and sue me for them. Everyone agreed that in this situation the smart thing to do would be to just drive away.


A model of morality that is ludicrous in its banality but not necessarily invalid

Now, I think it's pretty clear that, whatever the "right" thing to do when you hit a car may be, it is not to drive away anonymously. It is (as we all know) often hard to do the right thing. It's hard because you have something at stake, so you are inevitably tempted to do not what you know is right but what you know is expedient. You might even talk yourself into believing that the expedient thing is the right thing ("I deserve to keep this wallet I found"). But the people around you, your proverbial friends and neighbors, have no such vested interest and are capable therefore of presenting a theoretically unbiased distinction between what is right and what is expedient. Everyone knows these things.

In a conventional model of morality, societal pressure is to do what is right. That is to say, if I found a wallet, and needed the money in it, I might turn to a friend for advice, and the friend, not tempted by the money, would say, "Give the wallet back, fool." It is, after all, very easy to give advice when you can't be affected by the outcome.


What is society for?

I would go so far as to say that the purpose of society (and here society stands in opposition to government but perhaps embraces the concept of culture; we need not worry overmuch about definitions at this stage)--the purpose of society is to help us do things that would otherwise be difficult. It is, for example, difficult to toil all summer to put food aside for the winter, but we have pressure--the parable of the ant and the grasshopper to which we are exposed as children; sewing or harvest festivals; people coming up to us and saying, "What's wrong with you, fool, you're going to starve this winter if you don't shape up"—that makes it easier.

If everyone tells you, "Return the wallet," it is easier to return the wallet. If everyone tells you, "Return the wallet or you'll go to hell," or, alternately, "Return the wallet of we will shunnnn you, for you are a thief," it becomes even easier. Societal pressure is to do what is right but difficult.

But this is not at all what societal pressure points towards any more. My friends, doubtless with my best interests at heart, advised me (in the above examples) not to do what is right but rather to do what is smart. Societal pressure becomes to do what is easy and wrong.

These anecdotes are hardly data, as they say, but I think we will all agree that if we turn to our friends for advice we do not expect a "hard answer." We expect to be made to feel better for our crimes. Sartre has pointed out that when we turn to another for advice we select whom we turn to in order to get the advice we want. So if you know someone who would say return the wallet, don't ask him. We've got to look out for ourselves.

Two things happened between the former model of society (which is of course, an ideal perhaps never widely attained) and our current one. We lost faith in society and we lost faith in morality.


On Becoming a Woman

I used to collect old teen advice manuals, so I know that something strange happens to them between the late 'fifties and late 'sixties. In the late 'fifties, they say (and I wish I had them in front of me to quote verbatim, but this will be fairly accurate) that when unsure of what to do simply seek out the most popular people in school and do what they do. Try to fit in. Avoid loners and outcasts. Juvenile delinquency had been perceived as a major problem since the mid 'forties, but these teen manuals saw peer pressure as a means to combat it. Peer pressure will prevent you from becoming a delinquent.

This advice changes sometime in the 'sixties, so, of course, by the time I (and presumably you) was forced to sit through a string of tedious and pointless "life ed." classes, peer pressure had become a force of evil. Do not, the textbook thundered, under any circumstances, do what everyone else is doing. Do, rather, your own thing, or (the textbooks become confused at this point) your own thing that happens to correspond to what we and not they say you should do. This is nonsense advice, which is impossible to follow, which is why we all turn to our peers and become drug-addicted prostitutes.

And Lord knows I don't trust society. When I read those 'fifties manuals my sympathy is all with the loners and the outcasts. Everyone's is; if yours is not you are so far removed from the mores of contemporary America as to be, paradoxically, an outcast yourself. Grease, Crybaby, Dead Poets Society, and Pleasantville are all texts that present the conformity of the 'fifties as something to be overcome. And all I can say to them is amen, since I hate society as much as, or probably a hundred times more than, anyone. And yet, now I find myself in a culture that has no confidence in itself as a culture, that cannot hold the majority of its citizenry up as exempla or even successes. If peer pressure is negative, then most people who pass through the culture are failures. Whatever you may think of the society of the past at least it was not usually a failure.


The deontological argument

The fact that most people are amoral I'm just going to assume as a given, or leave to another time.


Conclusion

Like most things, societal pressure is both a symptom and a cause or our woes. Etc.

This is not a very satisfying ending, but then this whole essay is merely a prolegomena to future texts.




(Post a new comment)


[info]ericbuttface2
2007-01-15 01:37 pm UTC (link)
What's with the overuse of the word fool when quoting your friends? Are you only friends with Mr. T impersonators these days?

What is your new AIM handle?

While leaving a note on the car is clearly the only decent thing to do, I'm not sure giving the AIM handle to someone is else is necessary. Clearly, it's the nice thing to do, but that person has no claim on your handle and you should not be expected to hand it over. Perhaps that person also has a great need for your home and your wife's sexual favors, do you think soceity should compel you to hand those over also?

>when unsure of what to do simply seek out the most popular people in school and do what they do.

This is so utterly ridiculous. I hardly think this constitutes positive peer pressure.

As someone currently living in a country of conformist, sub-human automatons, I can say that modern America, whatever its faults, is better than a soceity that just encourages people to be like others and not to think for themselves.

>Do, rather, your own thing, or (the textbooks become confused at this point) your own thing that happens to correspond to what we and not they say you should do

I think that's the reason these messages ring false. They can make the case for abstinence and asceticism or they can make the case for individualism couched in misanthropy, but they can't make the case for individualism couched in doing what adults tell you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:35 am UTC (link)
I'm still warmmilk. Through some mysterious antics I cannot comprehend I gave away one warmmilk and kept another.

Obvioulsy giving away handles is not a moral issue, although it might be kind of jerky to hold onto something you don't care about at all that you know someone desperately wants. I was just trying to ease into the topic.

I would much rather live in a do-what-you-feel-like society than a do-what-we-say society, but this is hardly surprising since I was raised to believe in the superiority of the do-what-you-feel-like society by the same. I am not convinced that a do-what-you-feel-like society can actually exist for very long; but this a subject to be addressed in the upcoming months.

I'm interested in how you would couch individulism in misanthropy. I think around here individualism is usually couched in hedonism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Astonishment
(Anonymous)
2007-01-15 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Hal: WHO ARE YOUR FRIENDS?! I could imagine my friends cautioning me from giving away an IM handle, but I'm pretty sure my friends would be rock-solid behind me leaving a note at the scene of a fender-bender. Have you considered whether you might just attract particularly amoral friends?

-Sumana

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Astonishment
[info]samgrrrl
2007-01-16 04:26 am UTC (link)
In the collective defense of Hal's friends (possibly soon to no longer be his friends :P ), he's chosen to paint us with an alarmingly broad brush to make a point.

In my own personal defense, I don't think I knew Hal when he experienced the note-leaving fender-bender, and thus definitely could not have rendered an opinion on his actions. When he relinquished his ownership of warmmilk, I merely expressed my surprise that he would so easily give up an IM nickname. Of course, I'm the person who is very proud of the fact that I have a 6-digit ICQ user ID.

To sum up, don't jump to conclusions based on the dubious veracity of Hal's anecdotes. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Astonishment
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 04:36 am UTC (link)
I have personally seen samgrrrl kill and eat a human baby.

However, perhaps I should stress that not all my friends are amoral dastards, and I'm sure many of them would have encouraged me to do the right thing even when I was disinclined to.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Astonishment
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:48 pm UTC (link)
WHO ARE YOUR FRIENDS?!

Not only have you met most of my friends, you have actually helped them massacre defenseless undead reindeer! For shame!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ecmyers
2007-01-15 02:36 pm UTC (link)
It's unfortunate that your friends would give you bad advice, but it's more disturbing that they would then mock you for doing the right thing. Even if contemporary society insists that the "right thing" isn't necessarily the "smart thing" (which generally means the "selfish thing" since the general consensus is do what's best for you and screw the rest of society), taking responsibility for your actions is the most basic tenet of the social contract. Too many want to draw the benefits of society without participating in it, or while downright undermining it. I do solicit advice from a broad number of people, if only to consider all the options available, but my own morality is my own guide. Sometimes people do remind me of what I should do when I may be forgetting it, or resistant to following through on my instincts.

I hope I'm never hit by a car one of your "friends" is driving--I'm sure he would keep on going.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-15 11:56 pm UTC (link)
I'm sure my friends thought they were being good friends to me, and were looking out for my welfare. And they may well have been correct, and I may by my actions have left myself open to being screwed. I perhaps made them sound more callous than I should have, as I'm sure they had my best interests at heart. What's noteworthy here (I think) is that they were looking out for me (traditionally my own specialty, looking out for numero uno) instead of encouraging me to do what was theoretically difficult.

Was this an unusual situation? Although we may be straying afield here: the concept of universal morality, that is, a morality that applies to everyone and not just one's own clan, is relatively recent. Perhaps it was simply unsustainable, and we are going to retreat to local moralities, where the default will be to protect one's own clansman (or friend here) at the expense of some outlander (or stranger).

I would wager that most people in New York don't think it's wrong for you to steal from someone who was rude to you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]samgrrrl
2007-01-16 04:28 am UTC (link)
See above for a response, the basic gist of which is "Don't jump to conclusions about all of Hal's friends based on his broad assertions."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:25 am UTC (link)
Since everyone here is a friend of mine, I don't think there's much danger of anyone jumping to the wrong conlusion about every member of a set that includes himself.

However, it would be pretty funny...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ecmyers
2007-01-16 04:58 pm UTC (link)
Of course. But I'm sure he has at least some untrustworthy and amoral friends to watch out for.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]goawayplease
2007-01-15 03:22 pm UTC (link)
You know, I watched "High Noon" last night... The majority isn't always right...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-15 06:29 pm UTC (link)
Well, I saw The Ox-Bow Incident, and…oh. Never mind.

But I think it could be argued that the majority is always right by definition, because it is the majority (not a simple majority of numbers, but whoever holds power) that decides what the concepts of right and wrong mean.

The resistance of individuals at great personal risk against the Nazis is a touchstone of twentieth-century morality, But we only believe that these lone crusaders were fighting for right because the Nazis lost. There’s no one around to say that Bonhoeffer was a wanker who stood in the way of progress. They were the minority in the short term, but the majority in the long term. We all agree now that Gary Cooper was right,

The opinion of the majority in the short term is the mob. The opinion of the majority in the long term is culture,

Although personally I love high noon and hate almost everything else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sunseenli
2007-01-15 04:41 pm UTC (link)
the purpose of society is to help us do things that would otherwise be difficult. It is, for example, difficult to toil all summer to put food aside for the winter, but we have pressure--the parable of the ant and the grasshopper to which we are exposed as children; sewing or harvest festivals; people coming up to us and saying, "What's wrong with you, fool, you're going to starve this winter if you don't shape up"—that makes it easier.

I think your conclusion is right, but your example wrong. Society doesn't just make things easier by goading us; it makes it easier by providing us with things that we would find difficult to produce by ourselves. One hungry winter would be enough to convince you to toil in the summer, regardless of what society said, but because of our society, you and I don't literally have to till the land. We can do other things, things we're better at, and exchange some of what we do in order to receive the fruits of the soil. One person can barely scratch out a living for himself, but two people end up having a better quality of life, even for two lives. I'm not sure how it works, but it's usually the case.

Now, this doesn't seem like it fits in with where you were going, I realize that. But to my own mind, I think of myself as a largely moral person. I realize most other people don't think so, because my actions don't fit into their morality, but the purpose of my morality is to keep a free and mutually beneficial society going. Not to avoid hell, but to avoid starvation. I behave myself for a variety of personal reasons (in my morality, Pride is a virtue, not a sin), but also because I expect good behavior in return. Life's just easier that way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-15 11:23 pm UTC (link)
My example may be wrong, but I was trying to start with something non-controversial--we all know we need to plan ahead and we all know it can be hard to do so. With luck, future examples will bring us a clearer vision of the role of society (and not spiral us into madness, a possible other option).

I think of myself as a largely moral person. I realize most other people don't think so, because my actions don't fit into their morality

I have no reason to believe you are particularly immoral for I have not yet caught you committing any particularly heinous crimes. But assuming your morality involves sacrificing children to a moon god, our moralities may come into conflict, for I frankly find this untenable. This is not strange, as history is really the history of competing belief systems, many of which are mutually exclusive. This is a fruitful area for discussion, and certainly something I intend to address.

But please: let the children go; the moon needs no more blood.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]sunseenli
2007-01-16 02:59 pm UTC (link)
My example may be wrong, but I was trying to start with something non-controversial--we all know we need to plan ahead and we all know it can be hard to do so. With luck, future examples will bring us a clearer vision of the role of society (and not spiral us into madness, a possible other option).

Mmm, fair enough. But it would be hard for me to find an example of morality that doesn't, in the long run, benefit the doer, if only in the "Do As You Would Be Done By", or in the "I'm too proud to do such and such".

I have no reason to believe you are particularly immoral for I have not yet caught you committing any particularly heinous crimes.

By that logic, I don't see any reason to believe you are "not a very nice person", as you've been nothing but nice to me. Personally I believe your morality runs along the same lines as mine, so I doubt we'll have any problems.

But assuming your morality involves sacrificing children to a moon god, our moralities may come into conflict, for I frankly find this untenable. This is not strange, as history is really the history of competing belief systems, many of which are mutually exclusive. This is a fruitful area for discussion, and certainly something I intend to address.

How dare you! Everyone knows the moon has a goddess, not a god.

But please: let the children go; the moon needs no more blood.

But then how will I get my costumes? What do you want me to do, run around convention centers naked?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 04:12 pm UTC (link)
But it would be hard for me to find an example of morality that doesn't, in the long run, benefit the doer

Running into a burning building to save a child and getting immolated?

Letting women and children get on the lifeboats first?

Not kissing your boss's ass?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]sunseenli
2007-01-17 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Running into a burning building to save a child and getting immolated?

This is a nice thing to do, but I don't know that it's necessarily a "moral" thing to do, in that, not running into a burning building to save a child would be immoral. Certainly I know nothing about fire safety (beyond whatever Dick Van Dyke used to show in those commercials) and I'm certainly not all *that* strong. Me running into a burning building would probably result in one dead Crissy plus one dead child. I can't see any good in that.

Letting women and children get on the lifeboats first?

You are picking hard ones. I don't know how qualified I am to comment on this, because I'm obviously in a priveleged position. But I will say this, that women and children are valued in a society because they help perpetuate the society, slightly more than men. (In that, one man can make ten babies with ten women, but ten men can only make one baby with one woman.) And there's also the notion that men would be able to "hold out" longer treading water, or whatever, because of their increased physical strength. But, personally, I think the moral thing to do is make sure there's enough goddamn lifeboats.

Not kissing your boss's ass?

Ah, this is an easy one. If your boss is the type that needs his ass kissed, it means he's probably immoral himself, and doesn't deserve to BE boss, because he prefers flattery over performance. So even if you DO kiss his ass, you're not really going to get ahead in life, and you certainly won't be happy, so that particular approach has failed. Whereas, if you do have a good boss, you won't have to kiss his ass, because he'll recognize your true worth. Argh, I'm not explaining this well, but it makes sense to me. And, I know that sounds overly idyllic, but trust me, it is possible. I'm in a very happy workplace, and I don't hate my boss, and because of that, I never HAVE to kiss his ass. I can just be myself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-18 05:18 am UTC (link)
Is the test for whether an action is moral whether not performing that action is immoral? I'm not sure that's the case, but it need not concern us.

In the life boat example: you are correct that society may have a vested interest in preserving women and children, but that's helping society, and does nothing for the drowning men who stay on the ship. Any men who stay will have performed a moral action that does not benefit them.

If you do not like that example, let me give another. Let's say you get drunk one night and go out driving on a lonely highway, when you run over a child; the child is dying and will obviously soon be dead. The moral thing to do is, clearly, to call an ambulance. If you do this you will be arrested. If you huck the child over an embankment and drive away there is every reason to believe you will get away with it.

I won't go so far as to say, as certain bumper stickers do, that no good deed goes unpunished, but surely many go unrewarded.

It is doubtless best, for maximum Machiavellian scheming, to act morally consistantly enough that people believe in your iron-clad morals, and then screw them over when they least suspect it. Shogun offers a pretty good example of someone putting this theory into successful practice. Note that I do not condone such antics, but they do get results. I don't think politicians get elected by being honest. (Exceptions: Washington, Lincoln, Truman, possibly Carter.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]sunseenli
2007-01-18 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Is the test for whether an action is moral whether not performing that action is immoral? I'm not sure that's the case, but it need not concern us.

I think it's really difficult to establish a rule with no exceptions to base morality on, but one of the loose guidelines I try to use is: does it add to my quality of life, both in the short-term and the long-term?

In the life boat example: you are correct that society may have a vested interest in preserving women and children, but that's helping society, and does nothing for the drowning men who stay on the ship. Any men who stay will have performed a moral action that does not benefit them.

I need to think about this some more, but I'm not sure that I think staying on the ship is necessarily a moral action by my own definitions. It could be that a person's self-esteem might require them to stay on the boat, rather than live with the guilt of "killing a child" by taking that seat on the lifeboat, but again, I realize I'm in a privleged position here.

If you do not like that example, let me give another. Let's say you get drunk one night and go out driving on a lonely highway, when you run over a child; the child is dying and will obviously soon be dead. The moral thing to do is, clearly, to call an ambulance. If you do this you will be arrested. If you huck the child over an embankment and drive away there is every reason to believe you will get away with it.

A person by my moral standards would never end up in a situation like this, as by my morality, a person would never drive drunk, both to avoid endangering his own life, and the lives of others. There's nothing to gain by driving drunk.

I won't go so far as to say, as certain bumper stickers do, that no good deed goes unpunished, but surely many go unrewarded.

Which is why a good deed should be its own reward, or, at least have internal awards, like the satisfaction of knowing you've done the right thing in the long term. Putting money in the bank isn't a reward, but taking out the money to buy the new game console is, so you learn to use the daydreaming as a reward, you know what I mean?

I don't think politicians get elected by being honest. (Exceptions: Washington, Lincoln, Truman, possibly Carter.)

Yeah, but...that's a problem with our system, not something we should perpetuate, you know?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]fatherofmonster
2007-01-18 11:03 pm UTC (link)
I think it's really difficult to establish a rule with no exceptions to base morality on, but one of the loose guidelines I try to use is: does it add to my quality of life, both in the short-term and the long-term?

Funny, that is one of the foundations of my morality, yet no one who knows me and is conversant with English usage would label me moral.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-19 06:02 am UTC (link)
A person by my moral standards would never end up in a situation like this, as by my morality, a person would never drive drunk

I fear we make a grave miscalculation when we divide the world into the moral and the immoral (or the elect and the preterit, if you prefer) in this fashion. It is true that once one drives drunk one has already committed an immoral act (some would say that once one drinks the devil's jism one has already committed an immoral act), but of course, we have all committed immoral acts in our lives, and the question is what do we do now? An otherwise good person can slip and get behind the wheel while hammered, just as an otherwise bad person presumably is frequently not driving drunk. At any moment while driving drunk one can decide to do the moral thing and pull over. At any moment after running over a kid one can chose to the moral thing. At any moment. If you're given a chess problem, it is invalid to say, "I never would have gotten into check in the first place."

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-19 06:08 am UTC (link)
does it add to my quality of life

I have to admit that this looks like the opposite of morality to me.

For example, constructing a throne of schoolgirl skulls would certainly add to my quality of life, but it strikes me as fairly immoral. If you wish to suggest that my throne of skulls might land me in jail, lowering my quality of life in the long run, let us say that I am trapped on a desert island with a bunch of schoolgirls. Surely a throne of skulls, sans punishment, would still be wrong. Surely it would be wrong not because it would affect me, but because it would affect the girl whose skull I am extracting. Is this not so?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 04:20 pm UTC (link)
Everyone knows the moon has a goddess, not a god.

Not according to this text

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]sunseenli
2007-01-17 03:14 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if I have the mental capacity or stamina to describe all the ways in which that text disturbed me. There are so, so, SO many.

God, there's more on this site...::gets sucked in::

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The Moon, it hates us
[info]fatherofmonster
2007-01-18 10:20 pm UTC (link)
How dare you! In Japan, a culture that one would assume you know something of from your costumery, the moon is a god and the sun a goddess.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]oneangryrabbit
2007-01-15 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Wow, what assholes. I hope you find a better class of people to hang out with.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 01:10 am UTC (link)
Zing!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dorkart
2007-01-15 08:08 pm UTC (link)
You make the incorrect assumption that society results from morals or that society leads to morality. Instead, both are a result of the human need to survive. Assuming god does not exist and our morals are not given to us by god, how do we explain why all people think that killing is wrong. I suggest that morals, especially the more basic ones (e.g. killing, stealing are wrong) are simply a reflection of human realization that "hey, if we don't kill each other all the time, we will survive long enough to procreate". Society is a result of a similar need to survive: "hey, if we combine our 10 groups of 10 into one giant group of 100, it'll be harder for predators to kill us, and hey, more varied gene pool, can't go wrong with that!". The rules we create to not violate the first realization are the rules that help society continue without breaking apart again.

Now, for your argument that it is the job of society to prevent you from doing immoral things - it is not. Your argument is reversed and does not follow. Let me illustrate:

All As are Bs. All Bs are Cs. Therefore, all As are Cs (true). Therefore all Cs are As (false).

Your argument:

The society rewards* individuals who follow society's rules (e.g. morals). I'm an individual within the society. Therefore, I am rewarded when I follow rules (true). Therefore, I am punished when I don't follow the rule (false).

See, the punishment does not always follow (that is, you "get away with it"). I would go on a limb and say that when you don't follow the rules, you have a chance of that a. you'll be punished, b. nothing will happen. Even though you can benefit from following the society's rules, you can make it on your own, not follow the rules and still be fine. I think when your "friends" tell you "don't follow the society's rules by putting a note on the car you smashed", they mean "take your chance between a and b, because b is likely".

* Chance for procreation, protection from predators, etc.

Now, the problem here is that sometimes "society's rules" != "morals". That's why I only used the "don't kill" and "don't steal" in my example. I think your peer pressure argument is really an argument that society itself is the enemy. In order to survive and procreate and be protected from predators, we must obey's society's rules such as "if you have a nice car, you'll have a higher chance of getting laid" etc. Your argument is simply "ARRGHHHH THE SOCIETY HAS GONE NUTS AND LOST THE SIGHT OF WHAT WE SHOULD REALLY FOCUS ON TO SURVIVE AND NOW THE SOCIETY HAS GONE AND MADE ITSELF ITS OWN ENEMY!!!!1111ONES".

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-15 11:11 pm UTC (link)
This was pretty good until the end, when it became incredibly annoying. So I'll just ignore that part.

Now, I always appreciate the introduction of symbolic logic to an argument, but I don't think it applies here. It's pretty clear that society does, in fact punish people who don't follow the rules. The fact that logic has not proved it doesn't make it any less true. Obviously it is possible to avoid punishment, but surely the point behind a system of morality is to fill up the cracks people slip through by distancing concepts of right and wrong from concepts of reward and punishment. I don't think any of this is controversial, so if you disagree, please explain.

The model you propose on the origins of society may well be accurate (I have no idea). But I wish later on explicitly to make the assertion that one of the purposes of society is to help us do things that are difficult even if these do not relate to our survival, but rather to our contentment or well-being. However, that will have to wait.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]dorkart
2007-01-16 03:08 am UTC (link)
Sorry about that last part, I was getting bored.

The point is that society (or rules thereof) and morality are just two ways to affect human behavior, but they're not necessarily a result of each other. Let's take peer pressure in respect to modifying a human's behavior. A human succeptible to peer pressure will modify his actions to "act like everyone else", for example. Peer pressure is simply an innerworking of society and does not really have anything to do with morals (except when some people say so). So if you change your behavior due to peer pressure, you haven't done so because something is right or wrong, but simply because peer pressure made you do so. Your behavior has only changed in respect to the society that put the pressure on you. Whether killing is wrong or not has not changed. I mean, peer pressure tells kids that they gotta own an iPod, but that has nothing to do with morals.

I think in a way what you propose in respect to society helping you do things that are difficult otherwise has to do really with a system of punishment and reward. I mean, even in your smashed car example, if you do "the right thing", why are you doing it? Because it is inherently good? Or because you'll feel good about being a good person? Or maybe becuase you expect some sort of a guilt trip in regards to not leaving a note? If anything, peer pressure has already worked on you, but not necessarily from your "friends". You have learned somewhere along the way that it's not cool to not leave a note if you smash up someone's car, right? Maybe the problem in your entire argument here is that you equate the friends in your example with society (I know for a fact that they're jerks, so you probably shouldn't go by what they say).

I would like to take this argument and expand it to a conversation about hive minds and decisions made collectively by hundreds of individuals.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]dorkart
2007-01-16 03:10 am UTC (link)
By the way, I'm finding it pretty difficult to continue having this argument without resorting to arguing that morals are separate from humans and that all morals are a choice, while at the same time I "know" that all these morals are inseparable from my own morality. Maybe I'm missing something about inherent morality that we all come with by default? I have to think about this some more.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:15 am UTC (link)
I think I agree with much of what you're saying.

Society and morality are two ways of affecting human behavior, but surely morality comes from society. That is to say, even if a transcendent moral system exists, surely the way we learn about it from society.

And naturally society uses a system of rewards and punishments to manipulate us.

Kant has claimed that a good deed done because of fear of punishment, desire for reward, or to feel smug does not "count" as a good deed, but hold open the possibility for a purely selfless act (I believe this is all in Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals), and I am assuming this is what you are referencing in the first paragraph. However, I think Kant is a nimbus. Motives are for detectives, and we should worry about actions instead.

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but let me outline some basic principles we may or may not agree on first.

1. We are all born selfish to the point of evil.
2. Any goodness we acquire along the way is taught.
3. With the exception of certain saints and mystics, whose numbers are so small as to statistically insignificant, one is taught morality by pressure, and by a series of rewards and punishments.
4. It is possible to internalize "lessons of goodness" (or whatever you want to call them), such that you no longer have to weigh the pros and cons of an action in a mercenary way to evaluate its morality ("If you must think about it, you are already without honor." -Spengler). However, our moral decisions are still predicated on the pressure, rewards, and punishments or times past.

Agree or disagree?

I would question your assertion that all cultures view killing as wrong. It may be that all cultures (ours included) seek to regulate killing in some way, but very few consider killing an absolute wrong. We make exceptions for wars, crimefighting, capital punishment, euthanasia, etc. Other cultures have made exceptions for human sacrifice, killing the infidel, blood feuds, etc. These exceptions can in some cases have very little overlap. In the Mahabharata (for example), the Pandavas (the good guys) convince their enemies that they have perished in a burning building by tossing a bunch of low-caste people in there and passing their charred corpses off as their own.

I wouldn't say I equate my friends with society, but surely they are a part of society.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]fatherofmonster
2007-01-18 10:59 pm UTC (link)
Your propositions are flawed in the following manner:

1) We know not how we are all "born", wolf-boys aside. What evidence can you supply to show what people are like outside of society? Also, you are throwing around "good" and "evil" with little reference. It has already been posited by some on this thread that good = what in one's own best interest. The original post indicates that this is not your idea of good, but I would like a more positive definition.

2) Many are the examples (historical and literary) of those who are brought up in a corrupt or decadent society yet rebel, seeking goodness in the wilderness. Who taught them their concept of goodness? How could they transcend their surroundings? Is the ability to act morally against the will of your society enough to label you a saint or mystic?

3) One can also learn to act morally through logic or reason. An example is the Prisoner's Dilemma. In that case it is easy to prove that rational action and moral action align over the long term, even though amoral action seems beneficial in the short term. This can be extended to a wide range of moral activity, showing the greater personal benefit comes form moral action even in the abscence of external punishment or reward.

4) See the above, though I doubt that anyone disagrees that one can internalize a system of morality. Just try to jaywalk in Japan, even when no cars are in sight, and see how people react.

I think Hal is right about the direction of modern society in America. The overwhelming response of people I know is that one should look out for oneself, one's family, one's friends, one's countrymen, and then, maybe, the rest of the world, in that order. To sacrifice a gain related to a closer relation in favor of a farther relation is seen as crazy, or even evil, depending on scale. To give the lost wallet back to the stranger is scarificing one's personal gain to prevent an outsider's loss. Even if the friend you ask for advice would give the wallet back themself due to guilt they may pressure you to take it, as this is the "smart" thing to do. When the stakes are high (eg, you need to feed yourself or your family) the friend may berate you at length for hurting yourself at the expense of a stranger.

I wager that almost no one, including most readers of this blog, thinks that there is a moral imperative to put strangers above family. Most people would say that if the man running into a burning building has small children he is an irresponsible jerk, not a hero. This has been the case throghout much of history and spans many cultures. Modern American society merely extends this thinking to the individual with no dependants.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thecomicman
2007-01-16 04:06 am UTC (link)
remember when i magically had $12,000 deposited in my bank account and i went to the bank to tell them it wasn't mine?

remember what you told me not to do?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:15 am UTC (link)
Thank you for supplying more data that corroborates my point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]thecomicman
2007-01-16 05:23 am UTC (link)
point? what point? i was merely proving that you are as much of a jerk and an asshole as all your friends (myself excluded, of course).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-01-16 05:42 am UTC (link)
Your memory has recently suffered a credibility lapse in the great sticks-to-snakes controversy, but you're welcome to believe what you like.

However, you will note that while you're looking for excuses to dispense blame, the big kids are over here trying to have a discussion. Feel free to join in.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]thecomicman
2007-01-16 05:47 am UTC (link)
thank you for supplying more data that corroborates my point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…