halifax_slasher ([info]halifax_slasher) wrote,
@ 2007-12-02 22:04:00
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Entry tags:non-florilegium

Are we getting stupider?: An investigation: Part one: The Bestseller Lists
It's easy to make broad sweeping pronouncements like "We're all getting stupider," and I often do.

But these kind of things are hard to judge. After all, it doesn't feel like I'm getting stupider, and the past could always be stupid without my knowing. The fact that stupid books are all around you is no actual evidence; the past could have been full of stupid books everyone has forgotten about.

To avoid that final problem, I would like to take a look at bestseller lists to see how our (meaning, in this case, Americans') tastes have changed over the years. I should stress that, no matter what calumnies certain parties are spreading about me, me goal is not to punish the present or glorify the past; it is to identify a problem in the hope that we can fix it. I want to make the future smarter than the present is. I want us to keep getting smarter.

How to judge these bestseller lists? For ease of reference, I'm going to divide every book that has ever been published into one of two categories, A or B. For shorthand purposes, let us note that A refers to "serious" books of "literary merit" or at least "literary pretension" and B refers to "unserious" books that are not "literary." There are a lot of problematic words here, which I've put into quotes. Obviously we all know that Borges wrote A books and Robert E. Howard B books...

(Please note that this distinction is not a statement of actual merit, or how good a book is. I'd rather read P.C. Wren than Henry James any day, but I am aware that James is A and Wren is B. Many of my favorite writers, such as H. Rider Haggard or Jules Verne, are B; Edgar Rice Burroughs is as B as they come. It's possible to prefer B books to A books. Please do not be offended if your loved ones are Bs, as many of my loved ones are, too.)

...but the further you move away from the obvious cases the harder things get to measure. At a certain point it's going to become a judgment call. For our purposes, our dividing line will fall between Booth Tarkington and William Saroyan. imagine a list of authors organized from least serious to most, with Dan Brown and James Joyce assumed to be the termini (Sidney Shelton and Robert Musil could just as easily have been selected). Here's a partial sampling of the spectrum:

B
Dan Brown
Jackie Collins
Harold Robbins
.
.
.
Arthur Hailey
Fletcher Knebel
James Clavell
Frederick Forsythe
Michael Crichton
Steven King
James Michener
Agatha Christie
Louis L'Amour
Raymond Chandler
Lew Wallace
James Ellroy
Brett Easton Ellis
Mary Stewart
Booth Tarkington
-------------------------------
William Saroyan
Nordoff & Hall
Daphne du Maurier
James Hilton
Shirley Jackson
Harper Lee
Tom Wolfe
Robert Louis Stevenson
Maxine Hong Kingston
Ken Kesey
George Orwell
Mika Waltari
Evelyn Waugh
Norman Mailer
Gore Vidal
Carson McCullers
.
.
.
William Faulkner
Vladimir Nabokov
James Joyce
A
(Of course we are going to be judging books not authors, so some of these standings can be misleading. All his books are B, but Thomas Harris before Hannibal holds a different place than Thomas Harris after Hannibal (not just because he was better, but because he was trying) In practice, though, I am often driven to judging authors because I know things about authors even when I know nothing of their books.)

Contemporary writers who would fall on the serious side of this divide (and who I think have an outside chance of producing a bestseller), include Ian McEwan, Joan Didion, John Barth, Julian Barnes, Martin Amis, Edward Carey, Thomas Pynchon, and even Douglas Coupland or David Foster Wallace.

I could go nuts trying to figure out where certain flukes, like H.P. Lovecraft or Jerome K. Jerome, go, but let's not worry too much about these fellows, as they're not even bestsellers.

Is Daphne du Maurier placed too high? Do Steven King partisans want the man moved up? The somewhat arbitrary nature of some of these judgments is, I hope, offset by the total transparency of the data. And please note that the study is by no means wholly arbitrary. We are not judging texts based on merit or appealing to taste; although many authors are due for discussion, anybody who incorrectly assigns Musil and Sheldon, say, to categories simply does not understand what the categories mean, or is being willfully contrary.

To add some objective criteria to the mix: any Nobel Prize winner is going to be assumed to write A books; any Pulitzer prize winning book is going to be assumed to be A, although the possibility for a B book to spring from the same author's pen obtains. For example, I have always assumed Michener writes B books, but he did win a Pulitzer once, long ago. Have I misjudged him?

Now, it's always a problem that older bestseller lists are filled with strange names. To the extent that A texts can be assumed to survive better than B texts, it would be unfair to modern years to penalize them for the fact that I know who May Higgins Clark is. Therefore, we will only be counting A texts; any book not designated A is assumed to be B. This will inevitably favor recent years as it can be assumed I know almost every bestselling A book from 1995, something not true for 1945. But I guess we've got to favor something.

I am often in the position of judging books I have not read. This is not necessarily bad, as really literary reputation is as important as actual literary quality for measuring buying habits. (Daniel Pinkwater is America's greatest writer, but he can't be an A author because he writes for children; the same goes for most SF writers, no matter how good they are.) But commentary from experts (i.e. those who have read things) is welcome.

There are many objections that can easily be raised against what is, after all, a frankly non-scientific study. Perhaps A books have no relationship to intelligence. Perhaps in the past stupid or uneducated people didn't buy any books at all, and so bestseller lists were dominated by good books by default. Perhaps buying a book is not the same as reading it. To these I would argue that while there are many definitions of intelligence, the one I'm talking about right here is the one that makes people capable or even desirous of A texts, and if you don't like calling that intelligence, we can call it something else; I believe it is something important for society to maintain. A texts will, in any event, tend to be more complicated and difficult than B, and while long, convoluted sentences may not be necessarily a sign of esthetic quality, they will certainly test reading levels. To the idea that uneducated people didn't buy books in the past I would have no response if the past were the seventeenth century; I do not believe this to be the case in 1940, and I submit that the burden of proof is on the accuser. To the objection that people buy books they don't read, I can only say that a society in which people are enamored enough of literature to spend money just to have it near then is healthier than a society in which people do no such thing, as is a society in which people are willing to attempt books that are too difficult for them, even if they fail; and although certainly some best-sellers are not often read (Name of the Rose is a canonical example), it beggars the imagination that people would so often choose to throw money away on doorstops

I want to stress one last time, because I'd prefer to have a reasonable discussion than minister to a mile-parade of the puling offended, that I make no claims here that people should not read B books, nor am I even saying that you are stupid if you chose to read B books exclusively. But on the whole, a society that chooses to read A books over B books will most likely be a better-educated society.

Please, I ENCOURAGE disagreement over the categories in which these authors have been put. I ENCOURAGE those who know more to provide data on the unmarked. I ENCOURAGE people to discuss ways in which the A and B categories can be more rigorously defined. I DISCOURAGE the inevitable comment that runs more or less: "who thehell are u to juge wt i read lol i <3 [x writer] & u don't understadn u just r makin snap jugements bc u hate hte present and love the past why dont u mary it lol!! get a life u luuzer!!!!! lol ^.__.^"

Finally, I have tried to be charitable to the poor beleaguered authors; the line I drew between A & B permits plenty of middlebrow literature. We might not want to live in a country where everyone reads Musil nonstop; but there's probably a way to avoid reading Dan Brown nonstop, and I mean a way other than watching more TV.

I have chosen to start at 1940 because if I go back too far all the names get pretty alien. A authors have been marked with an asterisk. Nobel prize winners are also marked with an N.

These lists are from: http://www.caderbooks.com/bestintro.html

1940
1. How Green Was My Valley, Richard Llewellyn
2. Kitty Foyle, Christopher Morley*
3. Mrs. Miniver, Jan Struther
4. For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemingway*N
5. The Nazarene, Sholem Asch*
6. Stars on the Sea, F. van Wyck Mason
7. Oliver Wiswell, Kenneth Roberts
8. The Grapes of Wrath, John Steinbeck*N
9. Night in Bombay, Louis Bromfield
10. The Family, Nina Fedorova

1941
1. The Keys of the Kingdom, A. J. Cronin
2. Random Harvest, James Hilton*
3. This Above All, Eric Knight
4. The Sun Is My Undoing, Marguerite Steen
5. For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemingway*N
6. Oliver Wiswell, Kenneth Roberts
7. H. M. Pulham, Esquire, John P. Marquand*
8. Mr. and Mrs. Cugat, Isabel Scott Rorick
9. Saratoga Trunk, Edna Ferber
10. Windswept, Mary Ellen Chase

1942
1. The Song of Bernadette, Franz Werfel
2. The Moon Is Down, John Steinbeck*N
3. Dragon Seed, Pearl S. Buck*N
4. And Now Tomorrow, Rachel Field
5. Drivin' Woman, Elizabeth Pickett
6. Windswept, Mary Ellen Chase
7. The Robe, Lloyd C. Douglas
8. The Sun Is My Undoing, Marguerite Steen
9. Kings Row, Henry Bellamann
10. The Keys of the Kingdom, A. J. Cronin

1943
1. The Robe, Lloyd C. Douglas
2. The Valley of Decision, Marcia Davenport
3. So Little Time, John P. Marquand*
4. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Betty Smith
5. The Human Comedy, William Saroyan*
6. Mrs. Parkington, Louis Bromfield
7. The Apostle, Sholem Asch*
8. Hungry Hill, Daphne du Maurier*
9. The Forest and the Fort, Hervey Allen
10. The Song of Bernadette, Franz Werfel

1944
1. Strange Fruit, Lillian Smith
2. The Robe, Lloyd C. Douglas
3. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Betty Smith
4. Forever Amber, Kathleen Winsor
5. The Razor's Edge, W. Somerset Maugham*
6. The Green Years, A. J. Cronin
7. Leave Her to Heaven, Ben Ames Williams
8. Green Dolphin Street, Elizabeth Goudge
9. A Bell for Adano, John Hersey*
10. The Apostle, Sholem Asch*

1945
1. Forever Amber, Kathleen Winsor
2. The Robe, Lloyd C. Douglas
3. The Black Rose, Thomas B. Costain
4. The White Tower, James Ramsey Ullman
5. Cass Timberlane, Sinclair Lewis*
6. A Lion Is in the Streets, Adria Locke Langley
7. So Well Remembered, James Hilton*
8. Captain from Castile, Samuel Shellabarger
9. Earth and High Heaven, Adria Locke Langley
10. Immortal Wife, Irving Stone

1946
1. The King's General, Daphne du Maurier*
2. This Side of Innocence, Taylor Caldwell*
3. The River Road, Frances Parkinson Keyes
4. The Miracle of the Bells, Russell Janney
5. The Hucksters, Frederic Wakeman
6. The Foxes of Harrow, Frank Yerby
7. Arch of Triumph, Erich Maria Remarque*
8. The Black Rose, Thomas B. Costain
9. B. F.'s Daughter, John P. Marquand*
10. The Snake Pit, Mary Jane Ward

1947
1. The Miracle of the Bells, Russell Janney
2. The Moneyman, Thomas B. Costain
3. Gentleman's Agreement, Laura Z. Hobson
4. Lydia Bailey, Kenneth Roberts
5. The Vixens, Frank Yerby
6. The Wayward Bus, John Steinbeck*N
7. House Divided, Ben Ames Williams
8. Kingsblood Royal, Sinclair Lewis*N
9. East Side, West Side, Marcia Davenport
10. Prince of Foxes, Samuel Shellabarger

1948
1. The Big Fisherman, Lloyd C. Douglas
2. The Naked and the Dead, Norman Mailer*
3. Dinner at Antoine's, Frances Parkinson Keyes
4. The Bishop's Mantle, Agnes Sligh Turnbull
5. Tomorrow Will Be Better, Betty Smith
6. The Golden Hawk, Frank Yerby
7. Raintree County, Ross Lockridge Jr.
8. Shannon's Way, A. J. Cronin
9. Pilgrim's Inn, Elizabeth Goudge
10. The Young Lions, Irwin Shaw

1949
1. The Egyptian, Mika Waltari*
2. The Big Fisherman, Lloyd C. Douglas
3. Mary, Sholem Asch*
4. A Rage to Live, John O'Hara*
5. Point of No Return, John P. Marquand*
6. Dinner at Antoine's, Frances Parkinson Keyes
7. High Towers, Thomas B. Costain
8. Cutlass Empire, Van Wyck Mason
9. Pride's Castle, Frank Yerby
10. Father of the Bride, Edward Streeter

1950
1. The Cardinal, Henry Morton Robinson
2. Joy Street, Frances Parkinson Keyes
3. Across the River and into the Trees, Ernest Hemingway*N
4. The Wall, John Hersey*
5. Star Money, Kathleen Winsor
6. The Parasites, Daphne du Maurier*
7. Floodtide, Frank Yerby
8. Jubilee Trail, Gwen Bristow
9. The Adventurer, Mika Waltari*
10. The Disenchanted, Budd Schulberg

1951
1. From Here to Eternity, James Jones
2. The Caine Mutiny, Herman Wouk*
3. Moses, Sholem Asch*
4. The Cardinal, Henry Morton Robinson
5. A Woman Called Fancy, Frank Yerby
6. The Cruel Sea, Nicholas Monsarrat
7. Melville Goodwin, U.S.A., John P. Marquand*
8. Return to Paradise, James A. Michener
9. The Foundling, Cardinal Spellman
10. The Wanderer, Mika Waltari*

1952
1. The Silver Chalice, Thomas B. Costain
2. The Caine Mutiny, Herman Wouk*
3. East of Eden, John Steinbeck*N
4. My Cousin Rachel, Daphne du Maurier*
5. Steamboat Gothic, Frances Parkinson Keyes
6. Giant, Edna Ferber
7. The Old Man and the Sea, Ernest Hemingway*N
8. The Gown of Glory, Agnes Sligh Turnbull
9. The Saracen Blade, Frank Yerby
10. The Houses in Between, Howard Spring

1953
1. The Robe, Lloyd C. Douglas
2. The Silver Chalice, Thomas B. Costain
3. Désirée, Annemarie Selinko
4. Battle Cry, Leon M. Uris*
5. From Here to Eternity, James Jones
6. The High and the Mighty, Ernest K. Gann
7. Beyond This Place, A. J. Cronin
8. Time and Time Again, James Hilton*
9. Lord Vanity, Samuel Shellabarger
10. The Unconquered, Ben Ames Williams

1954
1. Not as a Stranger, Morton Thompson
2. Mary Anne, Daphne du Maurier*
3. Love Is Eternal, Irving Stone
4. The Royal Box, Frances Parkinson Keyes
5. The Egyptian, Mika Waltari*
6. No Time for Sergeants, Mac Hyman
7. Sweet Thursday, John Steinbeck*N
8. The View from Pompey's Head, Hamilton Basso
9. Never Victorious, Never Defeated, Taylor Caldwell*
10. Benton's Row, Frank Yerby

1955
1. Marjorie Morningstar, Herman Wouk
2. Auntie Mame, Patrick Dennis
3. Andersonville, MacKinlay Kantor
4. Bonjour Tristesse, Françoise Sagan
5. The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit, Sloan Wilson*
6. Something of Value, Robert Ruark
7. Not As a Stranger, Morton Thompson
8. No Time for Sergeants, Mac Hyman
9. The Tontine, Thomas B. Costain
10. Ten North Frederick, John O'Hara*

1956
1. Don't Go Near the Water, William Brinkley
2. The Last Hurrah, Edwin O'Connor*
3. Peyton Place, Grace Metalious
4. Auntie Mame, Patrick Dennis
5. Eloise, Kay Thompson
6. Andersonville, MacKinlay Kantor
7. A Certain Smile, Françoise Sagan
8. The Tribe That Lost Its Head, Nicholas Monsarrat
9. The Mandarins, Simone de Beauvoir*
10. Boon Island, Kenneth Roberts

1957
1. By Love Possessed, James Gould Cozzens
2. Peyton Place, Grace Metalious
3. Compulsion, Meyer Levin*
4. Rally Round the Flag, Boys!, Max Shulman
5. Blue Camellia, Frances Parkinson Keyes
6. Eloise in Paris, Kay Thompson
7. The Scapegoat, Daphne du Maurier*
8. On the Beach, Nevil Shute*
9. Below the Salt, Thomas B. Costain
10. Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand*

1958
1. Doctor Zhivago, Boris Pasternak*
2. Anatomy of a Murder, Robert Traver
3. Lolita, Vladimir Nabokov*
4. Around the World with Auntie Mame, Patrick Dennis
5. From the Terrace, John O'Hara*
6. Eloise at Christmastime, Kay Thompson
7. Ice Palace, Edna Ferber*
8. The Winthrop Woman, Anya Seton
9. The Enemy Camp, Jerome Weidman
10. Victorine, Frances Parkinson Keyes

1959
1. Exodus, Leon Uris*
2. Doctor Zhivago, Boris Pasternak*
3. Hawaii, James Michener
4. Advise and Consent, Allen Drury
5. Lady Chatterley's Lover, D. H. Lawrence*
6. The Ugly American, William J. Lederer and Eugene L. Burdick
7. Dear and Glorious Physician, Taylor Caldwell*
8. Lolita, Vladimir Nabokov*
9. Mrs. 'Arris Goes to Paris, Paul Gallico
10. Poor No More, Robert Ruark

1960
1. Advise and Consent, Allen Drury
2. Hawaii, James A. Michener
3. The Leopard, Giuseppe di Lampedusa*
4. The Chapman Report, Irving Wallace
5. Ourselves To Know, John O'Hara*
6. The Constant Image, Marcia Davenport
7. The Lovely Ambition, Mary Ellen Chase
8. The Listener, Taylor Caldwell*
9. Trustee from the Toolroom, Nevil Shute*
10. Sermons and Soda-Water, John O'Hara*

1961
1. The Agony and the Ecstasy, Irving Stone
2. Franny and Zooey, J. D. Salinger*
3. To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee*
4. Mila 18, Leon Uris*
5. The Carpetbaggers, Harold Robbins
6. Tropic of Cancer, Henry Miller*
7. Winnie Ille Pu, Alexander Lenard, trans.
8. Daughter of Silence, Morris West
9. The Edge of Sadness, Edwin O'Connor*
10. The Winter of Our Discontent, John Steinbeck*N

1962
1. Ship of Fools, Katherine Anne Porter
2. Dearly Beloved, Anne Morrow Lindbergh
3. A Shade of Difference, Allen Drury
4. Youngblood Hawke, Herman Wouk
5. Franny and Zooey, J. D. Salinger*
6. Fail-Safe, Eugene Burdick and Harvey Wheeler
7. Seven Days in May, Fletcher Knebel and Charles W. Bailey II
8. The Prize, Irving Wallace
9. The Agony and the Ecstasy, Irving Stone
10. The Reivers, William Faulkner*N

1963
1. The Shoes of the Fisherman, Morris L. West
2. The Group, Mary McCarthy*
3. Raise High the Roof Beam, Carpenters, and Seymour--An Introduction, J. D. Salinger*
4. Caravans, James A. Michener
5. Elizabeth Appleton, John O'Hara*
6. Grandmother and the Priests, Taylor Caldwell*
7. City of Night, John Rechy
8. The Glass-Blowers, Daphne du Maurier*
9. The Sand Pebbles, Richard McKenna
10. The Battle of the Villa Fiorita, Rumer Godden

1964
1. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, John Le Carré
2. Candy, Terry Southern and Mason Hoffenberg
3. Herzog, Saul Bellow*
4. Armageddon, Leon Uris*
5. The Man, Irving Wallace
6. The Rector of Justin, Louis Auchincloss
7. The Martyred, Richard E. Kim
8. You Only Live Twice, Ian Fleming
9. This Rough Magic, Mary Stewart
10. Convention, Fletcher Knebel and Charles W. Bailey II

1965
1. The Source, James A. Michener
2. Up the Down Staircase, Bel Kaufman
3. Herzog, Saul Bellow*
4. The Looking Glass War, John Le Carré
5. The Green Berets, Robin Moore
6. Those Who Love, Irving Stone
7. The Man with the Golden Gun, Ian Fleming
8. Hotel, Arthur Hailey
9. The Ambassador, Morris West
10. Don't Stop the Carnival, Herman Wouk

1966
1. Valley of the Dolls, Jacqueline Susann
2. The Adventurers, Harold Robbins
3. The Secret of Santa Vittoria, Robert Crichton
4. Capable of Honor, Allen Drury
5. The Double Image, Helen MacInnes
6. The Fixer, Bernard Malamud
7. Tell No Man, Adela Rogers St. Johns
8. Tai-Pan, James Clavell
9. The Embezzler, Louis Auchincloss
10. All in the Family, Edwin O'Connor*

1967
1. The Arrangement, Elia Kazan*
2. The Confessions of Nat Turner, William Styron (tie)*
2. The Chosen, Chaim Potok (tie)*
4. Topaz, Leon Uris*
5. Christy, Catherine Marshall
6. The Eighth Day, Thornton Wilder*
7. Rosemary's Baby, Ira Levin
8. The Plot, Irving Wallace
9. The Gabriel Hounds, Mary Stewart
10. The Exhibitionist, Henry Sutton

1968
1. Airport, Arthur Hailey
2. Couples, John Updike*
3. The Salzburg Connection, Helen MacInnes
4. A Small Town in Germany, John Le Carré
5. Testimony of Two Men, Taylor Caldwell*
6. Preserve and Protect, Allen Drury
7. Myra Breckinridge, Gore Vidal*
8. Vanished, Fletcher Knebel
9. Christy, Catherine Marshall
10. The Tower of Babel, Morris L. West

1969
1. Portnoy's Complaint, Philip Roth*
2. The Godfather, Mario Puzo
3. The Love Machine, Jacqueline Susann
4. The Inheritors, Harold Robbins
5. The Andromeda Strain, Michael Crichton
6. The Seven Minutes, Irving Wallace
7. Naked Came the Stranger, Penelope Ashe
8. The Promise, Chaim Potok*
9. The Pretenders, Gwen Davis
10. The House on the Strand, Daphne du Maurier*

1970
1. Love Story, Erich Segal
2. The French Lieutenant's Woman, John Fowles*
3. Islands in the Stream, Ernest Hemingway*N
4. The Crystal Cave, Mary Stewart
5. Great Lion of God, Taylor Caldwell*
6. QB VII, Leon Uris*
7. The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight, Jimmy Breslin
8. The Secret Woman, Victoria Holt
9. Travels with My Aunt, Graham Greene*
10. Rich Man, Poor Man, Irwin Shaw

1971
1. Wheels, Arthur Hailey
2. The Exorcist, William P. Blatty
3. The Passions of the Mind, Irving Stone
4. The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
5. The Betsy, Harold Robbins
6. Message from Malaga, Helen MacInnes
7. The Winds of War, Herman Wouk
8. The Drifters, James A. Michener
9. The Other, Thomas Tryon
10. Rabbit Redux, John Updike*

1972
1. Jonathan Livingston Seagull, Richard Bach
2. August, 1914, Alexander Solzhenitsyn*N
3. The Odessa File, Frederick Forsyth
4. The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
5. The Word, Irving Wallace
6. The Winds of War, Herman Wouk
7. Captains and the Kings, Taylor Caldwell*
8. Two from Galilee, Marjorie Holmes
9. My Name Is Asher Lev, Chaim Potok*
10. Semi-Tough, Dan Jenkins

1973
1. Jonathan Livingston Seagull, Richard Bach
2. August, 1914, Alexander Solzhenitsyn*N
3. The Odessa File, Frederick Forsyth
4. The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
5. The Word, Irving Wallace
6. The Winds of War, Herman Wouk
7. Captains and the Kings, Taylor Caldwell*
8. Two from Galilee, Marjorie Holmes
9. My Name Is Asher Lev, Chaim Potok*
10. Semi-Tough, Dan Jenkins

1974
1. Centennial, James A. Michener
2. Watership Down, Richard Adams*
3. Jaws, Peter Benchley
4. Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, John Le Carré
5. Something Happened, Joseph Heller*
6. The Dogs of War, Frederick Forsyth
7. The Pirate, Harold J. Robbins
8. I Heard the Owl Call My Name, Margaret Craven
9. The Seven-Per-Cent Solution, John H. Watson, M.D., Nicholas Meyer, editor
10. The Fan Club, Irving Wallace

1975
1. Ragtime, E. L. Doctorow*
2. The Moneychangers, Arthur Hailey
3. Curtain, Agatha Christie
4. Looking for Mister Goodbar, Judith Rossner
5. The Choirboys, Joseph Wambaugh
6. The Eagle Has Landed, Jack Higgins
7. The Greek Treasure: A Biographical Novel of Henry and Sophia Schliemann, Irving Stone
8. The Great Train Robbery, Michael Crichton
9. Shogun, James Clavell
10. Humboldt's Gift, Saul Bellow*

1976
1. Trinity, Leon Uris*
2. Sleeping Murder, Agatha Christie
3. Dolores, Jacqueline Susann
4. Storm Warning, Jack Higgins
5. The Deep, Peter Benchley
6. 1876, Gore Vidal*
7. Slapstick: or, Lonesome No More!, Kurt Vonnegut*
8. The Lonely Lady, Harold Robbins
9. Touch Not the Cat, Mary Stewart
10. A Stranger in the Mirror, Sidney Sheldon

1977
1. The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien; Christopher Tolkien*
2. The Thorn Birds, Colleen McCullough
3. Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah, Richard Bach
4. The Honourable Schoolboy, John Le Carré
5. Oliver's Story, Erich Segal
6. Dreams Die First, Harold Robbins
7. Beggarman, Thief, Irwin Shaw
8. How To Save Your Own Life, Erica Jong
9. Delta of Venus: Erotica, Anaïs Nin*
10. Daniel Martin, John Fowles*

1978
1. Chesapeake, James A. Michener
2. War and Remembrance, Herman Wouk
3. Fools Die, Mario Puzo
4. Bloodlines, Sidney Sheldon
5. Scruples, Judith Krantz
6. Evergreen, Belva Plain
7. Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah, Richard Bach
8. The Holcroft Covenant, Robert Ludlum
9. Second Generation, Howard Fast
10. Eye of the Needle, Ken Follett

1979
1. The Matarese Circle, Robert Ludlum
2. Sophie's Choice, William Styron*
3. Overload, Arthur Hailey
4. Memories of Another Day, Harold Robbins
5. Jailbird, Kurt Vonnegut*
6. The Dead Zone, Stephen King
7. The Last Enchantment, Mary Stewart
8. The Establishment, Howard Fast
9. The Third World War: August 1985, Gen. Sir John Hackett, et al.
10. Smiley's People, John Le Carré

1980
1. The Covenant, James A. Michener
2. The Bourne Identity, Robert Ludlum
3. Rage of Angels, Sidney Sheldon
4. Princess Daisy, Judith Krantz
5. Firestarter, Stephen King
6. The Key to Rebecca, Ken Follett
7. Random Winds, Belva Plain
8. The Devil's Alternative, Frederick Forsyth
9. The Fifth Horseman, Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre
10. The Spike, Arnaud de Borchgrave and Robert Moss

1981
1. Noble House, James Clavell
2. The Hotel New Hampshire, John Irving*
3. Cujo, Stephen King
4. An Indecent Obsession, Colleen McCullough
5. Gorky Park, Martin Cruz Smith
6. Masquerade, Kit Williams
7. Goodbye, Janette, Harold Robbins
8. The Third Deadly Sin, Lawrence Sanders
9. The Glitter Dome, Joseph Wambaugh
10. No Time for Tears, Cynthia Freeman

1982
1. E.T., the Extra-Terrestrial Storybook, William Kotzwinkle
2. Space, James A. Michener
3. The Parsifal Mosaic, Robert Ludlum
4. Master of the Game, Sidney Sheldon
5. Mistral's Daughter, Judith Krantz
6. The Valley of Horses, Jean M. Auel
7. Different Seasons, Stephen King
8. North and South, John Jakes
9. 2010: Odyssey Two, Arthur C. Clarke
10. The Man from St. Petersburg, Ken Follett

1983
1. Return of the Jedi Storybook, Joan D. Vinge, adapt.
2. Poland, James A. Michener
3. Pet Sematary, Stephen King
4. The Little Drummer Girl, John Le Carré
5. Christine, Stephen King
6. Changes, Danielle Steel
7. The Name of the Rose, Umberto Eco*
8. White Gold Wielder: Book Three of The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Stephen R. Donaldson
9. Hollywood Wives, Jackie Collins
10. The Lonesome Gods, Louis L'Amour

1984
1. The Talisman, Stephen King and Peter Straub
2. The Aquitaine Progression, Robert Ludlum
3. The Sicilian, Mario Puzo
4. Love and War, John Jakes
5. The Butter Battle Book, Dr. Seuss
6. ". . . And the Ladies of the Club," Helen Hooven Santmyer
7. The Fourth Protocol, Frederick Forsyth
8. Full Circle, Danielle Steel
9. The Life and Hard Times of Heidi Abromowitz, Joan Rivers
10. Lincoln: A Novel, Gore Vidal*

1985
1. The Mammoth Hunters, Jean M. Auel
2. Texas, James A. Michener
3. Lake Wobegon Days, Garrison Keillor
4. If Tomorrow Comes, Sidney Sheldon
5. Skeleton Crew, Stephen King
6. Secrets, Danielle Steel
7. Contact, Carl Sagan
8. Lucky, Jackie Collins
9. Family Album, Danielle Steel
10. Jubal Sackett, Louis L'Amour

1986
1. It, Stephen King
2. Red Storm Rising, Tom Clancy
3. Whirlwind, James Clavell
4. The Bourne Supremacy, Robert Ludlum
5. Hollywood Husbands, Jackie Collins
6. Wanderlust, Danielle Steel
7. I'll Take Manhattan, Judith Krantz
8. Last of the Breed, Louis L'Amour
9. The Prince of Tides, Pat Conroy
10. A Perfect Spy, John Le Carré

1987
1. The Tommyknockers, Stephen King
2. Patriot Games, Tom Clancy
3. Kaleidoscope, Danielle Steel
4. Misery, Stephen King
5. Leaving Home: A Collection of Lake Wobegon Stories, Garrison Keillor
6. Windmills of the Gods, Sidney Sheldon
7. Presumed Innocent, Scott Turow
8. Fine Things, Danielle Steel
9. Heaven and Hell, John Jakes
10. The Eyes of the Dragon, Stephen King

1988
1. The Cardinal of the Kremlin, Tom Clancy
2. The Sands of Time, Sidney Sheldon
3. Zoya, Danielle Steel
4. The Icarus Agenda, Robert Ludlum
5. Alaska, James A. Michener
6. Till We Meet Again, Judith Krantz
7. The Queen of the Damned, Anne Rice
8. To Be the Best, Barbara Taylor Bradford
9. One: A Novel, Richard Bach
10. Mitla Pass, Leon Uris *

1989
1. Clear and Present Danger, Tom Clancy
2. The Dark Half, Stephen King
3. Daddy, Danielle Steel
4. Star, Danielle Steel
5. Caribbean, James A. Michener
6. The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie*
7. The Russia House, John Le Carré
8. The Pillars of the Earth, Ken Follet
9. California Gold, John Jakes
10. While My Pretty One Sleeps, Mary Higgins Clark

1990
1. The Plains of Passage, Jean M. Auel
2. Four Past Midnight, Stephen King
3. The Burden of Proof, Scott Turow
4. Memories of Midnight, Sidney Sheldon
5. Message from Nam, Danielle Steel
6. The Bourne Ultimatum, Robert Ludlum
7. The Stand: The Complete and Uncut Edition, Stephen King
8. Lady Boss, Jackie Collins
9. The Witching Hour, Anne Rice
10. September, Rosamunde Pilcher

1991
1. Scarlett: The Sequel to Margaret Mitchell's "Gone with the Wind," Alexandra Ripley
2. The Sum of All Fears, Tom Clancy
3. Needful Things, Stephen King
4. No Greater Love, Danielle Steel
5. Heartbeat, Danielle Steel
6. The Doomsday Conspiracy, Sidney Sheldon
7. The Firm, John Grisham
8. Night Over Water, Ken Follet
9. Remember, Barbara Taylor Bradford
10. Loves Music, Loves to Dance, Mary Higgins Clark

1992
1. Dolores Claiborne, Stephen King
2. The Pelican Brief, John Grisham
3. Gerald's Game, Stephen King
4. Mixed Blessings, Danielle Steel
5. Jewels, Danielle Steel
6. The Stars Shine Down, Sidney Sheldon
7. Tale of the Body Thief, Anne Rice
8. Mexico, James A. Michener
9. Waiting to Exhale, Terry McMillan
10. All Around the Town, Mary Higgins Clark

1993
1. The Bridges of Madison County, Robert James Waller
2. The Client, John Grisham
3. Slow Waltz at Cedar Bend, Robert James Waller
4. Without Remorse, Tom Clancy
5. Nightmares and Dreamscapes, Stephen King
6. Vanished, Danielle Steel
7. Lasher, Anne Rice
8. Pleading Guilty, Scott Turow
9. Like Water for Chocolate, Laura Esquivel
10. The Scorpio Illusion, Robert Ludlum

1994
1. The Chamber, John Grisham
2. Debt of Honor, Tom Clancy
3. The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield
4. The Gift, Danielle Steel
5. Insomnia, Steven King
6. Politically Correct Bedtime Stories, James Finn Garner
7. Wings, Danielle Steel
8. Accident, Danielle Steel
9. The Bridges of Madison County, Robert James Waller
10. Disclosure, Michael Crichton

1995
1. The Rainmaker, John Grisham
2. The Lost World, Michael Crichton
3. Five Days in Paris, Danielle Steel
4. The Christmas Box, Richard Paul Evans
5. Lightning, Danielle Steel
6. The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield
7. Rose Madder, Stephen King
8. Silent Night, Mary Higgins Clark
9. Politically Correct Holiday Stories, James Finn Garner
10. The Horse Whisperer, Nicholas Evans

1996
1. The Runaway Jury, John Grisham
2. Executive Orders, Tom Clancy
3. Desperation, Stephen King
4. Airframe, Michael Crichton
5. The Regulators, Richard Bachman
6. Malice, Danielle Steele
7. Silent Honor, Danielle Steel
8. Primary Colors, Anonymous*
9. Cause of Death, Patricia Cornwell
10. The Tenth Insight, James Redfield

1997
1. The Partner, John Grisham
2. Cold Mountain, Charles Frazier
3. The Ghost, Danielle Steel
4. The Ranch, Danielle Steel
5. Special Delivery, Danielle Steel
6. Unnatural Exposure, Patricia Cornwell
7. The Best Laid Plans, Sidney Sheldon
8. Pretend You Don't See Her, Mary Higgins Clark
9. Cat & Mouse, James Patterson
10. Hornet's Nest, Patricia Cornwell

1998
1. The Street Lawyer, John Grisham
2. Rainbow Six, Tom Clancy
3. Bag of Bones, Stephen King
4. A Man in Full, Tom Wolfe*
5. Mirror Image, Danielle Steel
6. The Long Road Home, Danielle Steel
7. The Klone and I, Danielle Steel
8. Point of Origin, Patricia Cornwell
9. Paradise, Toni Morrison*N
10. All Through the Night, Mary Higgins Clark

I couldn't find a 1999 list.

The remainder are from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0934974.html

2000
1. The Brethren, John Grisham
2. The Mark: The Beast Rules the World, Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye
3. The Bear and the Dragon, Tom Clancy
4. The Indwelling: The Beast Takes Possession, Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye
5. The Last Precinct, Patricia Cornwell
6. Journey, Danielle Steel
7. The Rescue, Nicholas Sparks
8. Roses Are Red, James Patterson
9. Cradle and All, James Patterson
10. The House on Hope Street, Danielle Steel

2001
1. Desecration, Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye
2. Skipping Christmas, John Grisham
3. A Painted House, John Grisham
4. Dreamcatcher, Stephen King
5. The Corrections, Jonathan Franzen
6. Black House, Stephen King and Peter Straub
7. The Kiss, Danielle Steel
8. Valhalla Rising, Clive Cussler
9. A Day Late and a Dollar Short, Terry McMillan
10. Violets Are Blue, James Patterson

2002
1. The Summons, John Grisham
2. Red Rabbit, Tom Clancy
3. Remnant, Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye
4. The Lovely Bones, Alice Seybold
5. Prey, Michael Crichton
6. Skipping Christmas, John Grisham
7. The Shelters of Stone, Jean M. Auel
8. Four Blind Mice, James Patterson
9. Everything's Eventual, Stephen King
10. The Nanny Diaries, Emma McLaughlin and Nicola Kraus

2003
1. The Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown
2. The Five People You Meet in Heaven, Mitch Albom
3. The King of Torts, John Grisham
4. Bleachers, John Grisham
5. Armageddon, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins
6. The Teeth of the Tiger, Tom Clancy
7. The Big Bad Wolf, James Patterson
8. Blow Fly, Patricia Cornwell
9. The Lovely Bones, Alice Sebold
10. The Wedding, Nicholas Sparks

2004
1. The Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown
2. The Five People You Meet in Heaven, Mitch Albom
3. The Last Juror, John Grisham
4. Glorious Appearing, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins
5. Angels and Demons, Dan Brown
6. State of Fear, Michael Crichton
7. London Bridges, James Patterson
8. Trace, Patricia Cornwell
9. The Rule of Four, Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason
10. The Da Vinci Code: Special Illustrated Collector's Edition, Dan Brown

2005
1. The Broker, John Grisham
2. The Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown
3. Mary, Mary, James Patterson
4. At First Sight, Nicholas Sparks
5. Predator, Patricia Cornwell
6. True Believer, Nicholas Sparks
7. Light from Heaven, Jan Karon
8. The Historian, Elizabeth Kostova
9. The Mermaid Chair, Sue Monk Kidd
10. Eleven on Top, Janet Evanovich

2006
1. For One More Day, Mitch Albom
2. Cross, James Patterson
3. Dear John, Nicholas Sparks
4. Next, Michael Crichton
5. Hannibal Rising, Thomas Harris
6. Lisey's Story, Stephen King
7. Twelve Sharp, Janet Evanovich
8. Cell, Stephen King
9. Beach Road, James Patterson and Peter de Jonge
10. The 5th Horseman, James Patterson and Maxine Paetro

Resultant averages per decade:
1940s: 2.9 A books (0.7 books by Nobel Laureates)
1950s: 3.5 (0.4 Nobel)
1960s: 3.3 (0.2 Nobel)
1970s: 2.4 (0.3 Nobel)
1980s: 0.5 (0.0 Nobel)
1990s: 0.3 (0.1 Nobel)
2000s: 0.0 (0.0 Nobel)

The drop off here is abrupt and staggering. I'm interested to know if anyone disputes it, or if people believe that 2006's crop is a rival for 1946's.

Of course, there is also the question of what is to be done, but before we can even work on a solution we must establish that there is a problem. Is there a problem? Are we getting stupider? What say ye?




(Post a new comment)


[info]oneangryrabbit
2007-12-03 07:42 am UTC (link)
Of course the human race is getting stupider. The advantages of modern living means that the gene pool is chock full of people who should've been tossed out a long time ago. It's probably significant that supermarkets and drug stores carry B books almost exclusively and that likely affects sales, though I don't know what percentage of overall sales are accounted for by those kind of retailers.

I question the use of a bestseller list to determine intelligence, but I'm so prejudiced against such lists that it recently only took a slight push for me to say I don't care what the unwashed masses are reading. I certainly don't limit myself to reading A books, but when I do want an A book, I'll go to Harold Bloom's list before I'll ever look at a bestseller list.

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[info]goawayplease
2007-12-03 03:30 pm UTC (link)
Have you seen "Idiocracy"? It's not a great movie, but I enjoy the premise...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 04:17 pm UTC (link)
I thought Idiocracy was okay, but I couldn't figure out why it was set in the future.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]oneangryrabbit
2007-12-03 10:14 pm UTC (link)
Yes and yes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dorkart
2007-12-03 01:57 pm UTC (link)
You don't at all take into account the following:

In the 1940s, education was hard to come by. Those who were educated were either a. already rich and had plenty of time to devote to studying or b. really really wanted to study and got scholarships, etc. In 2008 everyone can read so everyone buys books, thus modifying the average reading level.

Also, in the 1940s, there was no TV.

Additionally, I'd venture that people are not getting stupider - I'd say publishers are getting smarter. If only 1000 people want to read Pynchon but you can shove Dan Brown down 3 million throats, which book would you sell? Ease of reading is definitely a factor here.

Overall, I'd say that the number of people interested in reading Joyce has remained constant, it's just that those readers are now not the only readers but a few among millions.

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 04:32 pm UTC (link)
>In the 1940s, education was hard to come by.

I believe you're thinking of the 1840s. By the end of the nineteenth century free public education available throughout the US, although I suppose some rural areas may have slipped through the cracks. In 1944, the GI Bill made college accessible to a mass audience for the first time, so you might be able to say that college was unavailable until the mid 1940s, but 1. I hardly think a college degree is required to read A books and 2. college, I believe, has been significantly dumbed down since the 1940s anyway, so we've really gotten a high school education by going to college.

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[info]dorkart
2007-12-03 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Here are some numbers:

1918 - law passed in the United States that makes public education free and mandatory - at least for elementary school.

1900 - 6% of population able to do so have graduated high school
2000 - 88% of population able to do so have graduated high school

I would not presume that everyone had high school education in 1940.

(Numbers from: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571494/Public_Education_in_the_United_States.html)

As for having everyone have elementary school education:, while to read books all you need is a reading skill, you can't say that someone with 1st grade education will appreciate Thomas Pynchon. Some education in literature and languages probably makes your appreciation of books higher. It's not a prerequisite - you can enjoy books without rigorous poetry courses - but it most likely helps. Do you not agree?

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[info]oneangryrabbit
2007-12-03 10:36 pm UTC (link)
I'll point out that pioneer families settling the West in the late 1800s had access to schools (e.g. Little House on the Prairie), so I really don't think education was that hard to come by in the 1940s. While not everyone completed to "high school" level, there was also less children's literature as we know it today - kids would've been reading adult books much earlier and what they were reading if they completed elementary school would've been much higher level than the average modern 6th grader.

I mean, Oscar Wilde was writing children's literature. Without having read either author, I think I can safely state that Oscar Wilde is more challenging to read than J.K. Rowling.

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 10:44 pm UTC (link)
It's worth remembering that in Little Women, the Marches read as children PIlgrim's Progress, a dense and canonically boring allegory.

The editions of Moby Dick and Last of the Mohegans I read were 1920s "boy's adventure" editions, aimed at twelve-year olds. I could not finish one of these books, and the other is reckoned a difficult book.

I love children's books, but they may have played a dirty trick on us. When I was very young I read a lot of Twain, Stevenson, and Verne, partially because I didn't know they were supposed to be difficult, and the old editions were certainly marketed at boys (Verne, frankly, is hardly literature, much as I love him); even though I didn't understand everything I read on first pass (the King and the Duke cartwheeling naked and painted in Huck Finn made zero sense to me, and was rather nightmarish), I enjoyed the heck out of them; then I started reading children's books, and I abandoned actual texts for years.

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 10:38 pm UTC (link)
I certainly agree that there are some writers that one needs a "good education" to read, but there are plenty that any literate person can pick up and enjoy: Steinbeck, Hemingway, Orwell. I would love to see a healthy mix
on best seller lists. Frankly I understand if not everyone wants to read Pynchon, but there are a host of "middlebrow" writers or even simple highbrow writers that I'd be happier if people were reading. (The fact that literature sometime in the modernist period became associated with difficult books for academic books is, I think a deplorable state of affairs.)

You're probably right that there was still a large segment of the population who had not graduated from highschool in 1940--but what about in the 1970s, when literature was still literature (according to the stats above)?

(Another place we may differ is that I believe public education makes you stupider.)

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 04:57 pm UTC (link)
>I'd venture that people are not getting stupider - I'd say publishers are getting smarter.

I think you're right about that. I just read The Making of Middlebrow Culture, which constantly stressed that book publishers used to consider advertising tricks to be "unsporting" or something, and would not indulge in them--until Simon & Shuster did, and made a mint.

Although I think it's clear there were lots of unserious books in the past that did get published, I don't know the publishing ratios, and this would an interesting field to explore.

Is your contention that publishing or marketing has changed? That is to say, were people in the past unable to buy as many bad books, or were they simply not being persuaded to do so as rabidly?

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[info]dorkart
2007-12-03 06:58 pm UTC (link)
"Is your contention that publishing or marketing has changed? That is to say, were people in the past unable to buy as many bad books, or were they simply not being persuaded to do so as rabidly?"

Yes, I think in the past, a list of bestsellers was a list of books that were selling based on their merit. Currently, the list of bestsellers comes first, before the book has even had time to be read by anyone. For example, Harry Potter #7 was on the top of the NYTimes Bestsellers list months before it hit the shelves - surely, you can't evaluate a book you haven't read.

I think you're confusing 9273492374 things together in your argument. You're arguing that people now have lower standards for books because crappy books are on bestseller lists. People who read romance novels don't consider them great literature - but they're more likely to purchase a $4 romance novel than a $15 anything else.

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[info]dorkart
2007-12-03 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Anyway, the biggest problem is the terminology. "Bestseller" should not mean "a good book". It just means a book that sells well. Which means that good marketing and advertising will push any book, regardless of how crappy it is (e.g. The DaVinci Code).

On the other hand, check out Oprah's Book Club: http://www.amazon.com/oprah - while making money off of already written classics, this approach is managing to make people read and appreciate the classics and good books, making them once again bestsellers. (It does tend to skew toward wah-wah-I'm-a-woman literature, but it also includes East of Eden, The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter and Anna Karenina.)

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[info]ltsk
2007-12-07 05:31 am UTC (link)
She got millions of people to read Love in the Time of Cholera a couple months ago. I may hate the damned sticker and be annoyed by people flocking to books just because someone on the boob tube tells 'em to, but she's done a lot to improve what people are reading.

I just wish they'd stop printing books with those stupid book club questions in the back. I really hate those.

Edited at 2007-12-07 05:31 am UTC

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 10:31 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. The point is that people decide what books they want to buy, and if they consistently choose "bad" books over literature, they are 1. certainly sacrificing a chance to learn 2. and probably possessed of "bad taste." (I don't think B books are necessarily bad, so I'm putting the judgmental words in quotes.)

Also, bestselles are perforce "zeitgeiSt books." I've lived through a time when the authors everyone was talking about were J.K. Rowling (whom I like) and Dan Brown (whom I don't). Imagine if all the buzz was about not a children's book writer and an moron, but about Faulkner and Hemingway, and their latest books? It sounds like a fantasy, but these people were consistent bestsellers.

People who read romance novels don't consider thEm great literature, but they choose to read romance novels instead of great literature. And it's worth remembering that until the early '90s literature was prices like romance novels, in mass market. They moved to trades because they sold better as trades, that is to say because people chose not to buy them for $4.

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[info]ltsk
2007-12-07 05:20 am UTC (link)
Also, in the 1940s, there was no TV.

But there were exceedingly cheap movies which weren't all very good. You could sit in a movie theater and watch a whole lot of crap all day for about 25 cents.

It's true, there was no American Idol back then. But some of those serial shorts were truly gawd-awful.

Then again, you actually had to get your ass out of the house to go see them, so there is a difference.

And radio serials were awesome.


Additionally, I'd venture that people are not getting stupider - I'd say publishers are getting smarter. If only 1000 people want to read Pynchon but you can shove Dan Brown down 3 million throats, which book would you sell? Ease of reading is definitely a factor here.

There's also been a marked change in distribution in the past thirty years. There was this facinating panel at the WFC this year with Betty Ballantine (yes, that Ballantine) and Tom Doherty (and Patrick Nielsen Hayden, who was mostly too much in awe to say anything), both of whom explained that it's just not that easy to get books out there any more. There used to be about 600 locally run and operated distributors in the US. There are now fewer than ten nationwide. The distributors no longer know the buying habits of the customers where they are placing books, so books that might have had a chance in the non-bookstore retailers when the customers' taste was understood are not even placed on the shelves anymore. Lowest common denominator distribution means everyone has to eat Lays potato chips. They're selling the same books to everyone.

So it's partially publishers changing their habits to match what those with the poorest taste (and education, probably, within limit of the customer still being literate) would buy in hopes of higher sales, but the distributors lack of understanding of (or giving a shit about) the variations in customer base limiting the publishers' ability to sell the stuff they have that's good. Add on top of that the necessity of having to market not just the book but the author, too, and it's pretty damned difficult to get what Hal would classify as an A author's book into the customers' hands. It's also easier just to sell old Vonnegut than try to introduce the new Vonnegut, if he's out there (which he might be).

This might, in part, explain what happened to the best-seller list, too.

I could be entirely wrong.

I should try to find my notes from that panel, which was, for me, the best thing about that weekend. Well, that and the drawing I bought.

Edited at 2007-12-07 05:42 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Methodology
(Anonymous)
2007-12-03 03:34 pm UTC (link)
My understanding is that the measuring of bestselling books in the USA has
changed very substantially over the past 50 years. Example: sci-fi got
moved to a different NYT list & cut from the fiction list a a few years
back. So it's damn dangerous to use one bestselling list and assume it's
a consistent source of data about bookreading preferences in the US.
How does Publisher's Weekly compile its listings, and how have they
changed their methods in the last hundred years? Are you okay with
limiting your study to the USA?

http://www3.isrl.uiuc.edu/~unsworth/courses/bestsellers/picked.books.cgi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_years_in_literature

http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/000430.html

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008112.html#148186

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Methodology
(Anonymous)
2007-12-03 03:37 pm UTC (link)
That was me, Sumana. Also: are you comfortable limiting yourself to the fiction list? It could be that people get something from reading nonfiction that they used to get from reading fiction, or vice versa....

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Methodology
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 04:52 pm UTC (link)
I deliberately limited my study to the US, because I frankly have no idea what's going on in other countries. I would doubtless know less about the bestsellers from other countries, even Canada or the UK, which would make it hard to rate them. And there are a great many countries where such a study simply wouldn't work--I don't think lieracy has decreased in Laos since the 1940s.

A nonfiction list investigation would be illuminating. It might be difficult to divide non-fiction as easily, because most non-fiction except Socks the White House Cat is at least ostensibly serious in import.

I have taken these lists as provided somewhat on face value, and I'd be interested to know how changes in calculation may have skewed the results. It's clear that something's up when Harry Potter makes no lists, and the Butter Battle Book did. But it would take more than shifting SF out to change results, though, it would take some serious number crunching issues.

I selected bestseller lists because it's very easy to pick and choose data from the past to "prove" things have gotten better or worsened. I mean when I think that Will Durant used to write articles for Cosmopolitan, and what he would say if you handed him any current issue, well, I despair; but it's possible to take some gossip rag from the fifties and compare it to the Atlantic and conclude that magazines are getting better. As many have pointed out, there have always been bad books, or at least since the nineteenth century there has always been printed trash, and it's just a question of how much the trash has taken over. If the average American who reads buys David Copperfield, this is different than if the average American who reads buys Jackie Collins, no?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Methodology
[info]ltsk
2007-12-07 05:26 am UTC (link)
The New York Times purposely removed the Harry Potter books from eligibility in the regular best-seller list some years ago, as they 1) were children's books and 2) were dominating for months on end, pissing off the "legitimate" fiction writers/followers. They created a separate list for children's fiction and Harry Potter's been in the kiddie books ghetto ever since. Everyone else seems to have followed suit. It's difficult to find a reliable list of best-sellers since the Harry Potter phenomenon since the snobbery against it (jealousy?) fucked with the lists.

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[info]goawayplease
2007-12-03 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Interesting... It looks like the last time I read anything on the bestseller list was 1991, when I was in 8th grade. I don't read a lot any more, but I have never heard of nine of the top ten from 2006. It also looks like a lot of them are genre books, like mysteries and spy books and horror.

Have you considered matching up the best seller list with a more subjective "best books of the year/decade/century" list? I'm curious how many of the best sellers from these years ended up on various people's "I want to read this!" or "You should read this!" list... I'm also curious how many of these books continued to sell...

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-03 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I guess I have to admit I read the Da Vinci Code, although I'm not sure it counts. I did read Wolfe in 1998, and with no regrets.

I'll probably read last year's Hannibal Rising at some point.

Your sugegstion is interesting--I'd be interested to see how well bestselling books are remembered in a year or two.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thecomicman
2007-12-04 02:50 am UTC (link)
A Tree Grows in Brooklyn isn't an A book? I've not read it, but I hear only about how great and wonderful it is, and how it changed people's lives, yadda yadda yadda. I'm just surprised it's not an A book.

Most of the problems I have with your "study" have already been enumerated, but I must stress that, whatever you think of public schooling, many people didn't get enough of it in the 1940s. And a lot of people were poor. Maggie's point is valid in that if all the poor people are too busy buying food instead of books or dying on some foreign land (WWII didn't end until 1945), and only rich, educated people are buying books, this will skew your numbers, though probably not as much as she thinks.

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[info]thecomicman
2007-12-04 02:51 am UTC (link)
I must also confess a love for B authors and an almost uniform hatred of A authors.

Pynchon? Nigga please.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-05 06:21 am UTC (link)
I've never had to say this before, but I really do prefer not to be called a "nigga."

I'm not sure where you get the idea that only poor people fought in WWII and only rich people stayed in the US. (Soldiers read a lot of books, but I'm not sure how these were purchased, or how that affects bestseller lists. It's certainly possible to be too poor to afford books, but considering the pricing of Pocket Books at a quarter a pop (the first Pocket Book was The Good Earth, 1939, hardly a penny dreadful), it would really take some poverty. And even if the forties are a special exception due to all sorts of extenuating circumstances, what are we to make of the prosperous 'fifties, 'sixties, and 'seventies?

In any event, according to this page, the US literacy rate in 1930 was 95%, so, without trying to pretend that life in the 1940s was exactly like it is today, I nevertheless will maintain that it's easy to underestimate the level of education of 1940. It's kind of embarrassing to believe that there was a time when common people chose to read Steinbeck, Maugham, and Sinclair Lewis, but the evidence, I believe points to it.

What I really object to is your cavalier reverse-snobbery insistence that you possess an "almost uniform hatred of A authors." A look at your bookshelf will indicate otherwise. I have no doubt that you take exception to the "ultraviolet" end of the spectrum: Joyce, Pynchon, Mann, etc.; but I think you'll find your ire softening as you move towards green. I understand your fondness for the fun genre Bs of Jasper Fforde and Isaac Adamson, but you can't revere Aeschylus and Milton and then pretend to have lowbrow taste.

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[info]thecomicman
2007-12-05 09:49 am UTC (link)
Huh. I didn't know that. About the literacy rate, I mean, not the 'nigga' thing. I concede that point wholeheartedly. We must be "dumber" than our '40s predecessors then, since our literacy rate now is about the same but we're choosing "dumber" books.

Also, I was under the impression that we were talking about prose, and contemporary prose at that, not classical plays or seventeenth century verse (your A and B list certainly supports my supposition). Regardless, I did say "almost." I like Hemingway and Faulkner, as well as Nabokov, after all. My "cavalier reverse-snobbery insistence" is merely a statement of fact and I'm sorry you took it so personally.

But to the real matter at hand: if you were sifting comic book creators into As and Bs, who would you make into an A (since most of them will no doubt be a B)? Names that spring immediately to mind are Chris Ware, Daniel Clowes, Joe Sacco, Seth, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and yes, even Warren Ellis (you may disagree with the last two).

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-05 04:48 pm UTC (link)
John Taylor Gatto has claimed that our literacy rate has actually declined since the '40s, but that's a minority opinion.

Most of my examples of A & B books were chosen to be illustrative of contemporary bestseller lists, but theoretically any book can be A or B. If we're going by contemporary standards, any book from before the nineteenth century is probably considered A, but that is of course, unfair to our century, as the Romance of Alexander may have been a B book in its time, and perhaps really should be considered one always. Milton and Aeschylus are two who have always been A, though, and two I knew you liked. I should have chosen contemporary authors, but I couldn't remember whom you liked with certainty. Murakami, no? Hogg should be A shouldn't he? A is a very broad category, and I'll bet you like or would like Orwell, Joseph Heller, Gore Vidal, etc. But Nabokov and Faulkner are pretty far to one end of the spectrum, and I'm glad you dig them, too.

Comics are a good question. As it stands, all comics are probably considered B, although this might change in a few years. It's tough because comics has its own canon, which is based in part on low standards and in part on the understanding that comics were a children's medium. Barks and Stanley are two of my favorites, but I can't call them A. Are Eisner's melodramas really A, exquisitely crafted as they are?

A would certainly include Clowes and Ware, as well as Sacco and Seth. Morisson and Moore have written B books (Deathblow Byblow), but both have certainly written A books as well, despite the fact that I don't really like Morrison's A work. Heck, Gary Panter is as A as you can get, and I can't stomach him at all. Transmet may be A, but Ellis has been in B town for a while now. Same with Ennis? Anyway, Chester Brown, Phoebe Gloeckner, Allison Belchdel, Adrian Tomine, Paul Hornschmeier, Dave Sim, all A. What about Jason? Too mired in genre? For that matter, has Frank Miller, once the greatest comic writer in the world, succeeded in producing A work?

But comic books are a happy exception to the publishing nightmare, as A work has been selling better and better (unlike the comics section, where A strips like Krazy Kat, Little Nemo, and Pogo have made way for gag strips, even gag strips I like such as Foxtrot or Dilbert, that are hardly literary or difficult). I used to go around saying that all interesting work being done in narrative today was being done in comics, which is too glib a statement, but is a reflection of how healthy good comics are.

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[info]thecomicman
2007-12-06 02:24 am UTC (link)
Campbell is probably A too, though the translations of world myths that I love so much are probably B, no? I mean, they're kind of the superhero comics of their time (but with a bit more resonance). They feature titanic clashes between impossible people, as well melodramatic love and overwrought anguish. Maybe some of them are A (Sturluson's Edda is probably A, for example, as are Lady Gregory and Yeats' collections of Irish myths, but I think that's more because of the authors' skills than the stories themselves), but I think most of them are Bs.

And yeah, you're right. "Smarter" A comics are becoming more and more popular today, but superhero B work still far outsells it.

I think Jason's only A work is Hey, Wait... and Miller's only A work is The Dark Knight Returns. Everything else they've done is B work, unfortunately (and in Miller's case, some of it is F work).

While true that both Moore and Morrison have written B books, I think maybe you think some of their A work falls in that category. While I can't argue that Deathblow: Byblows, Youngblood, anything published by Avatar, JLA, Batman, and New X-men are all B books, I think you'll have to admit that Lost Girls, Promethea, and of course Watchmen for Moore, and Animal Man, The Invisibles, and Seven Soldiers of Victory for Morrison are all A works. In your intro you said that A "refers to "serious" books of "literary merit" or at least "literary pretension,"" and I think a lot of Morrison's works certainly fit the bill of "literary pretension." In that same vein, Planetary and his StormWatch stuff (but not Authority) are probably Ellis' only other A works.

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-06 04:14 am UTC (link)
I really don't know what to do with someone who is an excellent writer but who writes things that are deliberately unserious. What, for example do you do with P.G. Wodehouse? Jason is a similar problem.

I haven't read enough of Seven Soldiers, but Invisibles and Doom Patrol, and possibly Animal Man (I only read the first trade, and that not so much) I'll go with. Moore I'll agree with, but I'm nost sure about Stormwatch for Ellis. Dark Knight is, of course, my favorite comic, but I wonder if it's too steeped in "comicness" (as R. Fiore would say) to count as A text. Certainly the lofted brows of the Comics Journal tend to dismiss it out of hand. Elektra Assassin and Ronin may be closer to an A text. I mean, I think I could make a case for Dark Knight as literature (the first Sin City, too), but it doesn't look like literature.

Myths: Homer, Hesiod, Virgil, Ovid, Quintus Smyrneus, are all indisputably A, but there are lots of texts that would be controversial. I may simply not know enough about England in the ninth century to judge whether Beowulf has artistic pretentions (I certainly believe it has artistic merit, but recall that no one ever wrote about it as art before Tolkien's book on Beowulf). We may not be able to judge these things outside of our own context, but certainly any ancient or medieval text reproduced today is atomatically going to be considered an A text, regardless. Retellings of myths are tricky because these are now non-fiction books, aimed at imparting factual information. Graves Greek Myths is borderline scholarly, and Hamilton's Mythology is written for the common reader but is full of facts not dumbed down. It's hard to judge non-fiction books, except insofar as we can safely rate any book of popular history or science above "how to get rich," or The Secret, or diet aids. A biography of Lincoln is not the same as a biography or Britney Spears, I think we agree.

These are all small quibbles, but it is, of course, possible to undermine the above results with small quibbles, and it is a useful reminder that some of the judgements I made were arbitrary. Obviously Jackie Collins and Danielle Steele are beyond the pale, but if Mario Puzo and Carl Sagan get elevated to A the '80s are going to look a lot smarter...

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[info]thecomicman
2007-12-06 04:39 am UTC (link)
This R. Fiore guy, does he have a book out? I've heard you cite him on many occasions, and I know he writes for TCJ, but I can't that here (and I probably wouldn't anyway). Is there an easier way to get this man's thoughts on comics?

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I agree!
(Anonymous)
2007-12-06 03:22 pm UTC (link)
"(Daniel Pinkwater is America's greatest writer..." I agree--but I always thought it was a horrible proof of the death of culture. I dream of a world, (and I think I used to live in one), in which my name would be the very last on a list of good writers.

Daniel Pinkwater

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Re: I agree!
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-07 07:30 pm UTC (link)
!!!!!!!

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Re: I agree!
[info]ericbuttface2
2007-12-08 03:15 am UTC (link)
So, Daniel Pinkwater reads Hal's Livejournal? That's pretty awesome.

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Re: I agree!
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-08 05:33 am UTC (link)
I feel like Kilgore Trout when he meets Vonnegut at the end of Breakfast of Champions.

I will soon be running after Pinkwater screaming, "Make me young! Make me young!"

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Re: I agree!
(Anonymous)
2007-12-13 03:10 pm UTC (link)
http://www.pinkwater.com/cgi-bin/picture_frame.pl?dinner.jpg

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Re: I agree!
[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-14 06:56 am UTC (link)
Holy crow! Look at that picture of Daniel Pinkwater with...that polka-dotted tie!

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[info]halifax_slasher
2007-12-07 07:30 pm UTC (link)
He has a long-anticipated, not-yet-released book of essays a-coming.

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[info]ltsk
2007-12-07 04:04 am UTC (link)
I've read Daphne du Maurier and I honestly cannot think of her as an A author. She's really over on the B side. I'm somewhat surprised that you gave her novel the asterisk and not A Tree Grows In Brooklyn in the 1943 best-seller list, but I only skimmed the latter while standing in an aisle of my high school library, so I don't feel I can make a very strong argument in its favor.

I'm probably going to edit this comment several million times as I go through your list.
-----

All right. Done. I have a couple of quibbles and a couple of questions.

Primary Colors was not A-level fiction. And while I admit to a deep and abiding love for Tolkien, I can't really see The Simarillion as A-level, either. It's high B. In my biased opinion.

I'm curious as to why you did not put an asterisk next to Franzen's The Corrections or Seabold's Lovely Bones. I've read critics' year-end best-of lists which listed the two novels in their respective release years. I take it you disagree heartily? I haven't read either (yet), so I can't really make an argument for or against their inclusion on the A side.
-----

I already wrote about the possible effect of severe changes in distribution might have had in the lowering of overall quality of the fiction on the best-seller lists of the past twenty-odd years. I do wonder how much that's changed things.

Mom and I went to the chain toy stores trying to find wood building blocks like the ones I had when I grew up for my cousin's kids. They didn't have any. And we haven't been able to find any independently-run toy stores that might carry good old-fashioned building blocks (instead of stupid Legos that already have the creative part completed for you so all you have to do is fit them together the way the directions tell you to). Maybe it's the same for buyers of fiction? Maybe they just don't know where to find what they want or even what they should be looking for when they desire something more substantive than the latest puss out of the fissure in Dan Brown's ass?

And how much is the culture of anti-intellectualism which has been willfully spread through the country over the past twenty years like mental ebola (liquifying intellectual curiosity so that it leaks out of the victims' ears, leaving them stubbornly ignorant) affected the reading populace's willingness to take on the new Pynchon?

Not to say that I don't think Americans are, on the whole, increadibly stupid. They are. I did not know this to be true until I moved up here and started dealing with the massively retarded on a daily basis at work. (Before then I thought stupidity was finite and random and I'd just had bad luck.) But there might be other factors besides their stupidity affecting the sale of books which would skew the best-seller list towards the craptacular.

Bear in mind, the above was all written by someone who actively hates all of Hemingway's novels. He was a wonderful short story writer and should have kept to that. Blergh.

I'm going to shut up and watch television now.

Edited at 2007-12-07 06:28 am UTC

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(Anonymous)
2008-01-17 05:22 am UTC (link)
It's all marketing and distribution. What's most telling is that the same names appear over and over in recent years. If you really wanted to pursue this, you would establish the percentage of fiction books sold per citizen in 1940 (or whenever we were apparently smarter) and compare that to now. I would suspect that the number of books sold per person has grown dramatically. Ironically, our culture may be reading more books than before . . . but that doesn't mean this increased number of readers gravitate towards the high end. Your list and observations just seem a natural artifact of an expanded market. But if you really want proof that the cream of the crop can't rise to the top, you'll go to Amazon and check out A Million Little Pieces of Feces by Mr. Bonkers. I would feel that it is a much, much smarter world if thousands and thousands of people read the sheer brilliance and wisdom of that amazing tome. -- Mr. Bonkers

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